Soooo today...

[peewee]

Today at 6am, 25 year old convicted drug smuggler Van Tuong Nguyen was hanged in Changi, Singapore. He received a death sentence for attempting to smuggle almost 400g of heroin into Australia through Singapore in transit from Cambodia in 2002.



It is said he committed the crime in an attempt to pay off debts for his heroin-addicted twin brother. His brother wasn't aware of his intentions.

I've been well aware of this case since 2002 as I have friends in Melbourne who went to school with Van Nguyen. It has only, however, been a prominent subject on the news in recent times. This is due to the date of his execution coming closer, but I think mainly because of the recent arrests of 11 Australians in three separate drug trafficking cases in Indonesia.




Schapelle Corby was the first to be charged, caught with marijuana in her body board bag at Bali's Denpasar Airport. She pleaded not guilty claiming the drugs were planted randomly in her bag by Sydney airport staff trafficking drugs to Bali airport staff. Somehow no video surviellance tapes exist and no fingerprints were taken. She's made out in all the news as if she's completely innocent, which I have my doubts about, but one thing's for sure that the Indonesian justice system is an absolute shocker. In the courts, "guilty until proven innocent" prevails. This has been the topic of our news for so long now. She was convicted and somehow avoided the death penalty to receive 20 years in Bali prison, but the appeals never seem to end.




Next up were the "Bali 9". This name given to a further 9 people charged with drug trafficking in Indonesia. There is conclusive evidence that they are all guilty of their crimes, which carry the death penalty. They all claim, however, that they and their families would have been killed if they did not partake in the trafficking of the drugs. There doesn't appear to be too much investigation into this though. There is much outcry at the moment as it appears Australian police tipped off Indonesian police in order to catch them. The result is that they're on trial in a shambles of a justice system facing the death penalty. The alleged mastermind behind the operation was arrested in Sydney and will be on trial in a much fairer justice system where his guilt will need to be proven beyond reasonable doubt and he will not face the death penalty.




The most recent arrest was Michelle Leslie for possessing and potentially trafficking ecstasy in Bali, Indonesia. She received three months in prison, which she had already served awaiting trial. She was only charged with possession and did not possess the amount to be mandatorily charged with trafficking. The light sentence is being probed, however, as it is believed the judges were lenient on her because of possible bribes and because she is a Muslim. There's also lots of talk with that as she adopted traditional Muslim dress and prayer, despite never doing so in the past and working as a model who shows quite a bit of skin.

So anyway I thought people may wish to participate in a serious discussion/debate. What are your thoughts on these cases? What are your thoughts on the death penalty? What are your thoughts on sentences for drug convictions?

[Emma]

God havent they got anything else to do than break the law....these sort of storys really get me...ofcourse if there commiting a crime theres a great chance there going to get caught and maybe spend the rest of their life in jail..so why do it...

Thanks

[Leesa]

In my opinion, I had thought that it was Van Nguyen's fault, drug trafficking in a country with such harsh laws. I was thinking of the people who the heroin would be affected by and such.. never was full for the execution of hanging, but it was his fault. But now reading that he was doing to save his brother, lightens the load. It's just pure love.. This afternoon I was watching the news and actually felt a bit of a hole in my soul for Nguyen. I feel really bad for not knowing the whole story and passing judgement. Hmm, so that action seems a problem in our society.

Michelle Leslie used to live in my area, and with the whole Muslim religion adoption then pretty much immediately ditching the attire when she boarded the plane from Bali back home, I'm pretty much just as annoyed as anyone else with that. I see it as a stunt, and it's annoying.. I briefly saw a press conference as well about her selling her story, which she got criticised for, saying that she wouldn't sell it and such.. she was in tears and all. But I didn't catch it all, and didn't hear her make a statement on her religion. Anyone know? I'm quite interested about that.

Death sentences suck, in only hardcore severe cases should it be handed down. Really, like a heaps heaps HEAPS massive murder of some sort. But even thinking that, it doesn't seem right. I don't think anyone has the right to take someone's life away.. And oh, didn't I just confuse myself?! Ehh. With the whole drug trafficking sentencing, a good ol' 20 years might dowit, like Shapelle Corby (who I believe is INNOCENT) recieved. Mmm. Or even longer. Think about where the drugs are going.. who is getting damaged.. but then again when thinking about it, we're all young and wanna do something fun once in a while.. Mmm. Confused.

[peewee]

That press conference by Michelle Leslie and her father was to announce that they'd never said a word about selling the story and that the media had just made it up that when she got home she'd be selling to the highest biller. It was reported that channel 9 (and I'm sure everyone else had a go) tried to talk her into selling her story to them and no doubt offered big big money. They were pissed because even John Howard had a go at her about selling her story when, whether she'd contemplated or planned on it or not, she'd never said a word about it.

To me the worst is the Bali Nine. They were used as drug mules to protect their families and were the Australian police tipped them off to the Indonesian police. This means they could have stopped them at the airports in Australia. Maybe in a court of law, attempting to board a plane to Bali with drugs strapped to you will get you a more lenient sentence than actually arriving in Bali and technically trafficking, but the difference is the death penalty. So what if there's more to it than meets the eye? What if they were forced to do so or their families would be killed? Uh oh, our condolences go to the people arrested and their families and our hearts are with them. That's pretty much what has been said by the Australian government when they had the power to save their lives.

I think with Shappelle the situation certainly looks like she's innocent and the whole situation is dodgy with nobody even bothering to check if her fingerprints were on the bag. But I think her story has been pushed to us as this poor little angel getting into shit for no reason, when I don't think almost anyone can know if she's innocent or guilty. But there's no way she could be convicted in a court here. There is so much reasonable doubt. That's the point, and therefore, she cannot be convicted of a crime, and therefore, the record would state she is innocent.

The situation with Van Nguyen is sad and it doesn't look like he was just out to make some money for himself, but it was still against the law and he went through a country where carrying more than 4g of drugs is considered trafficking, so he had to have known the potential consequences. He's guilty and I understand they have harsh laws to deter drug trafficking because it's such a big problem there, but I still don't agree with the death penalty.

There have been plenty of occasions where people who received the death penalty were wrongly convicted. The very last person given the death penalty in Australia when it was existed in the Northern Territory back in the 1960's was Ronald Ryan. Reasonable doubt has seen been discovered. Whether the same particular jury would have acquitted him is a different story, but in the opinion of various justice figures, given the new light on evidence discovered decades later, his guilt is very questionable.

It's hard for anyone with a heart and a brain to make a solid stance in one direction no matter what. Personally I don't think the death penalty is the end of the world in some cases and it wouldn't bother me. Not to say I still support, just saying. For example, Martin Bryant killed 35 people in Port Arthur, Tasmania I'm not sure how many years ago now. He just went on a rampage with an automatic weapon and opened fire. There is no doubt whatsoever he did. Nobody in their right mind could say so. Now he is serving something like 30 consecutive life sentences. He has no chance to be rebilitated and walk free and there's no doubt it was him so if he happened to get the death penalty after murdering 35 people just for the hell of it then woopdy do. But what if say Lindy Chamberlain (to stick with Australian cases) happened to be convicted and get the death penalty for killing her child, when only now has it been proven that a dingo really did steal her baby.

[Rodrigo]

When people say, like you Pete said, that death penalty should be applied in awful cases and only if there is absolutely no doubt that the perpetrator is guilty then they are creating a crash in the system, without wanting it. I'll explain: the majority of the occidental civilisation justice systems apply sentences without the absolute conviction of the guiltiness of the supposed felon. So, if the penalty of death should be applied just with absolute conviction, then all the other kind of crimes should also be treated in the same way. And, as there hasn't been any effort in any justice system to really, really improve the certainty of guiltiness (specially in minor cases where the supposed responsible of the crime is an average person, a laborer, the one and only Jon Doe) then very few people will be convicted, even in cases of pimping or minor fraud or whatever.

So well, I really agree with you in one point: pentalties applied by justice systems should only be given if you have the complete certainty that the subject is guilty. And to do that you should create a really good system that is not based in only conjectures and suppositions but in hard proves and facts.

About the death penalty, I really don't agree with that, people can always serve for something. OK, you can't reintegrate a lunatic into society, but you can put him to work or in the ultimate of the cases, you can use it as lab rat. Seriously, why would you want him/her dead if you can use that person for something that will benefit us all? like vaccines.

And well, that is only speaking about our well known justice systems. Of course a government that is created using religious bases it's mostly probable that won't give sentences like I formentioned as they base their system in moralities and moralities are always, ALWAYS, based on thoughts, opinions, prejudices, customs. So my recommendation: stay away from those countries if you don't know how they manage themselves and the outsiders, cause you can really get into something ugly and not always it will have to do with laws, but with the very own average people.

P.S. I should rule the world to create an Utopia.

[Jumperjack]

Ok here is my point of view, first of all I will give my opinion on drugs and the death penalty in general. All drugs should be legalized and the death penalty should be abolished totally.
Having said that, I also think it's a person's own reponsibillity if they want to use drugs or not.
One thing that I do find stupid is the fact that people go to countries like Indonesia and Singapore and violate the laws of these countries by drug trafficking when they must know that they can face a death penalty for doing so.
Here in the Netherlands drug trafficking is also totally illegal up to today( that will change in a few days) but possesion is tolerated, selling soft drugs in coffee shops is also tolerated but still illegal. Being from this country with very liberal drug laws makes me think twice before I would use or buy drugs in a foreign country with very harsh drug laws, in fact I am sure I will never consider it. I do believe the Australian government should use it's influence in order to make sure that no death sentences will be passed but I also think that the people in question don't have anybody to blaim for their misery but themselves.

[Nel]

Originally Posted by peewee

damn, she's cute!!!



regardless of the gravity of their crimes, it sounds like a very unfair justice system. The death penalty can have its place, but in the interest of justice, it is practically useless if the system behind it is corrupt. It doesn't serve anyone but the moral and ethical biases of the people above.

[Jan Willem]

Originally Posted by Jumperjack

Ok here is my point of view, first of all I will give my opinion on drugs and the death penalty in general. All drugs should be legalised and the death penalty should be abolished totally.
Having said that, I also think it's a person's own reponsibillity if they want to use drugs or not.
One thing that I do find stupid is the fact that people go to countries like Indonesia and Singapore and violate the laws of these countries by drug trafficking when they must know that they can face a death penalty for doing so.
Here in the Netherlands drug trafficking is also totally illegal up to today( that will change in a few days) but possesion is tolerated, selling soft drugs in coffee shops is also tolerated but still illegal. Being from this country with very liberal drug laws makes me think twice before I would use or buy drugs in a foreign country with very harsh drug laws, in fact I am sure I will never consider it. I do believe the Australian government should use it's influence in order to make sure that no death sentences will be passed but I also think that the people in question don't have anybody to blaim for their misery but themselves.

i agree, plus i would also never consider using drugs myself, because mother nature is even more relentless than those country?s laws! I was told the dutch drug laws are hypocrite as hell, practically impossible, but i do not know the details.

carlo - damn she is! who would convict such a beauty??!!

[peewee]

Originally Posted by JW

carlo - damn she is! who would convict such a beauty??!!

Mmhmm, another reason the decision is being criticised. It's like beauty-bribing.

Yeah models certainly aren't role-models lol. So much drugs in the modelling world. I know from my sister being a part of it. Meet Tovah Cottle, a Brisbane fashion model now in jail for armed robbery and various drug charges. She was with the same modelling agency as my sister and used to come over all the time and my parents were always worried about her cos she was only 15 and she was becoming this famous model far too quickly. Eventually she went places and moved on to Melbourne making a name for herself and being on the front cover of every fashion and women's magazine, before making a name for herself on the front page of every newspaper as a heroin addict who committed robbery with a blood-filled syringe.

Hmm Rodrigo a lot of the things I said were also accompanied by something like "it's not the end of the world" or "it's not going to bother me too much". What I mean is, while I may not agree with a lot to do with the death penalty, I'm not gonna be leading protests chanting passages from the Bible at the government. But if there was a yes/no referendum for the death penalty I'd vote No without hesitation. I've thought about things like testing and what not before, and as I said I'd turn a blind eye to that kind of thing, but if it were up to me there's no way I'd do that kind of thing. I'm against the death penalty really.

I heard somewhere that The Netherlands has the lowest number of drug addictions in all of Europe, so the standpoints of its people like Jack's, might be something other countries should think about listening to.

[Nel]

you know there was a teacher her who got convicted because she had sex with a student but she didn't get sentenced a jail time, some say because she is too hot and wouldn't last a second in prison.